Yes, I think that is just the pits. All bow and sacrifice to the Watchtower idol, even when you want to give flowers to the family of someone who died. Disgusting organisation.
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JoinedPosts by yadda yadda 2
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"In Lieu of Flowers, Contributions Can Be Made To The______KH of JWs"
by minimus inrecently, a very nice witness with mental illness killed himself.
i heard many witnesses were wondering whether there would be a memorial talk given at the kingdom hall since he committed suicide.. but remember, "at the request of the family", please give no flowers, just contributions to the kingdom hall.
sadly, these folks could use the money because the man that committed suicide was financially broke and was extremely depressed..
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Depends what you said in your text a bit. Was it some frivolous, possibly annoying thing? Some guys get sick of too much texting...I get sick of it...mainly an immature way of communicating for teenagers I feel.
But if this is a trend then it probably does mean he is taking you for granted and not feeling so romantic about you.
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The future of the Watchtower
by Exterminator inwhat are your thoughts on the watchtower's future?.
here's my guess: they will move away from the increasingly embarrassing dates of 1914 and 1919, rather stressing the "success" of their organization as credentials.
there will be even more emphasis on the concept of god's organization.. the result will be total sclerosis, for god's organization cannot err nor be reformed by men.
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The Watchtower organisation will never stop stressing the urgency of the times and the imminence of Armageddon...it's the lifeblood that keeps them all slavishly fearful and submissive.
They will just carry on as they are for decades to come, but with minor doctrinal tweaking and less and less emphasis on chronology and dates. This trend is already in evidence.
They will end up just like the 7th Day Adventists, who hardly talk about 1843 anymore.
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JWs: 144,000 in Revelation is not ALWAYS a literal number
by Olin Moyles Ghost ini recently realized something interesting about jw theology and thought i'd share it with the rest of the class: as most of us know, a distictive facet of watchtower/jw theology is the concept that the 144,000 in revelation chapters 7 and 14 is a literal number.
thus, the witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 humans will be resurrected to heaven to rule with jesus christ, while the rest of the witnesses will populate a restored paradise earth.. they also teach that the 24 elders in revelation represent the 144,000 kings and priests in heaven.
so, when rev.
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Interesting and well spotted, although its really only showing that the Society sometimes believes the entire 144k (still literal) is represented or portrayed in scripture by the remnant on earth (as a sub-set of the still literal number). There are numerous instances where the Society does this - basically twisting what a scripture is prima facie saying to fit whatever has happened in the organisation on earth during the last days. But this comment in the Rev Climax book (which is mostly garbage) isn't really suggesting the Society allows for a non-literal interpretation of the actual number who go to heaven per se.
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Doctrinal ramifications of large increase in 2008 memorial partakers?
by yadda yadda 2 inthe nearly 10% increase in partakers at the memorial in the 2008 annual service report is a huge increase.
there were increases in the previous years too.. this massive increase is no doubt attributeable to the 'new light' this year that the calling of the 'heavenly class' was not closed in 1935, as previously taught.
the new understanding this year is that the calling of the 'anointed' class is 'evidently' still open.
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They had painted themselves into a corner with their "1935 cutoff" doctrine. It was painfully obvious to even the most credulous believers that something was dreadfully wrong - were that really that many unfaithful anointed in years past that needed "replacing"? So they were forced to take drastic action, and hope things would shake out well.
I don't think they are baffled by the numbers either - but I think they were hoping it would not have been such a huge increase. Now, they will have to react and try to control the genie they have unleashed.
I don't think they have any sort of "doctrinal strategy". The only strategic moves that I've seen over the past 20 years have been attempts to limit legal liability and increase micromanaging control. Doctrine doesn't present any monetary risk for them - so it only changes when circumstances force them to do so (dropping of 1914 generation, dropping of 1935, etc.).
I see a couple of reactionary doctrinal changes that they can pull out in the future if/when the number grows embarrassingly large: (1) the 144K is a figurative number only, representing an "unnumbered little flock", or (2) there's a secondary heavenly class, anointed & going to heaven but not part of the "faithful & discreet slave".
Or, alternatively, they could just stop publishing the number of partakers. The dropping of the monthly field service report from the KM could be a precursor of that.
Good post. Absolutely agree with all your points, although I do not see the (2) option as very realistic, but (1) and your last point are definitely on the cards. And I don't think they have any doctrinal strategy either; their strategy is completely reactive and organisation-centric (since they are the only true religion and Jehovah only works through them), revolving entirely around trends and factors happening in and affecting the organisation...never simply because they have researched something for its own sake and realise they have messed up on a purely scriptural basis. If the numbers of the anointed keep increasing like this, they will take this as some kind of 'evidence' of Jehovah's 'celestial chariot' moving and react accordingly with minor tweakings of doctrine.
I think they will also react doctrinally if these massive increases continue because to not do so could be seen by some of the GB as ignoring the evidence of the holy spirit anointing many new ones (even though many or all may be deluded or fruitcakes). To ignore this may be seen as not hearing what the holy spirit is trying to say to the organisation or even committing the unforgiveable sin (eg, pharisees dismissed Jesus even though it was evident the holy spirit was operative on him).
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Doctrinal ramifications of large increase in 2008 memorial partakers?
by yadda yadda 2 inthe nearly 10% increase in partakers at the memorial in the 2008 annual service report is a huge increase.
there were increases in the previous years too.. this massive increase is no doubt attributeable to the 'new light' this year that the calling of the 'heavenly class' was not closed in 1935, as previously taught.
the new understanding this year is that the calling of the 'anointed' class is 'evidently' still open.
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The Watchtower could easily explain this away by saying that the great crowd is still an earthly class but that they are also in the 'new covenant' and can therefore partake if they choose. It can easily be argued that Jesus created two separate covenants..the 'new covenant' for all Christians, regardless of whether they believe they are going to heaven or staying on earth, and the 'covenant for a kingdom', which is only for the 144,000 (literal or symbolic). Whether a person has a heavenly or earthly hope is irrelevant. A convincing case for that could easily be presented by the GB.
Raymond Franz pointed out very well that there is practically no difference in how the 144k and great crowd are presented and described in Revelation, however, this does not necessarily mean the GC are a heavenly class..it could simply mean they are genuinely in the 'new covenant' and have received of the holy spirit. The language of Rev 7: 16, 17 can be argued as suggestive of an earthly destiny, something Ray Franz did not adequately address in his second book.
Basically, as pointed out, there is no difference between the 144K and the GC in terms of their relationship with Jesus. Both groups have their robes washed in the blood of the lamb, are in God's presence, receive of the holy spirit, etc, an obvious scriptural truth which the Watchtower Society has horribly twisted. The Society has put all the emphasis on their apparent different 'hopes' and ignored the overall context of the scriptures, which give no support to the notion that an entire class of Christians are outside of the new covenant.
But lets ask a theoretical question: If the GB decided to provide some explanation for these big increases in the partakers, what explanation could they offer? What is the most economical and palatable explanation?
Answer: The above explanation I've offered is much too radical for most JW's. It would require quite a complex and major shift in theology, something the Watchtower is clearly not interested in doing, even if it is the truth. No, instead the simplest and easiest 'explanation' or 'new light' for the Society to propound for the rank and file would be to simply say that the 144k may be literal and it may be symbolic, ie, that the Watchtower to admit that either interpretation could be possible. This would be easily accepted because it is entirely reasonable and natural given that the context of nearly all of Revelation 7 and 14 is symbolic. The weight of the immediate scriptural context suggests a symbolic interpretation is a real possibility. The Society's disproportionate emphasis on the words in Rev 7: 9 "...which no man could number.." is hardly enough to override the fact that the rest of Rev 7 is symbolic. So the reasonable position of allowing either interpretation to be true is the simple way out of this for the Society, if these big increases in the partakers continues.
But when was the Society ever not dogmatic? When has it allowed more than one interpretation to be a possibility? Never, to their shame.
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I have begun to issue 'Certificates of Merit..... Excellence In Shunning'
by AK - Jeff intwo weeks ago i sent the first one to a friend of 45 years who made a galloping escape down a grocery aisle and out the xpress lane to avoid my frightening middle aged wife, my 4 year old grandson and myself.
of course, i do sport a patch of facial hair now, and he likely imagined that he heard me asking the clerk for a gallon of fresh blood and three straws.
anyway, he moves quite well for a man of 71, so i gave him a nicely embossed certificate, suitable for framing.
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Ha, bloody marvellous idea I say! Make sure you add some scriptures about love and wotnot to make the buggers feel guilty.
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Doctrinal ramifications of large increase in 2008 memorial partakers?
by yadda yadda 2 inthe nearly 10% increase in partakers at the memorial in the 2008 annual service report is a huge increase.
there were increases in the previous years too.. this massive increase is no doubt attributeable to the 'new light' this year that the calling of the 'heavenly class' was not closed in 1935, as previously taught.
the new understanding this year is that the calling of the 'anointed' class is 'evidently' still open.
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Very interesting comments. I think if the increases continue at this kind of rate over the next few years, the Society will definitely make more doctrinal changes. For most JW's, a decrease over the years of the anointed is a key marker of the advance of time towards the end of this system. The Society pointed to the decreasing number of the remnant as a key marker that we are in the 'last days' about 12 years ago in an article that discussed how we know we are in the last days.
Those who think the Society will just sit on their hands and do nothing if this trend continues miss the obvious point that in 2007 the Society did indeed announce new light (that 1935 wasn't the 'close-off' date), evidently because of the previous two years chunky increases in partakers. So the Society does react and make 'adjustments' as the statisticsand the march of time demand. This pattern will undoubtedly continue if we get more large increases of partakers, but it won't be for some time.
I think its naive to think JW's just wont notice this. Most in the western world, especially Europe, will definitely notice this strange trend and wonder what on earth is going on. The Society will come under increasing pressure to 'explain' this somehow.
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Doctrinal ramifications of large increase in 2008 memorial partakers?
by yadda yadda 2 inthe nearly 10% increase in partakers at the memorial in the 2008 annual service report is a huge increase.
there were increases in the previous years too.. this massive increase is no doubt attributeable to the 'new light' this year that the calling of the 'heavenly class' was not closed in 1935, as previously taught.
the new understanding this year is that the calling of the 'anointed' class is 'evidently' still open.
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The nearly 10% increase in partakers at the memorial in the 2008 annual service report is a huge increase. There were increases in the previous years too.
This massive increase is no doubt attributeable to the 'new light' this year that the calling of the 'heavenly class' was not closed in 1935, as previously taught. The new understanding this year is that the calling of the 'anointed' class is 'evidently' still open. Because of this shift in understanding, many apparently chose to take the emblems this year who otherwise may not have, hence the big increase in partakers.
What are the doctrinal ramifications of this?
Further 'new light' this year concerning the 'generation' is that the generation is the 'anointed class' since 1914. Jesus said that this generation would 'by no means pass away' until the end comes. The clear implication from this is that the generation would dwindle, gradually decrease in number, as they got older and died. But now the opposite of this is happening: the 'generation' is increasing by significant proportions? If this continues for the next few years, what does this mean for the new light about 'this generation'?
If this trend of big increases in partakers continues, do you think the Society will be forced to revisit whether the 144k is a literal or symbolic number?
Will they have to revisit whether the great crowd are in the 'new covenant' and should partake?
Or will nothing change and the Society will just ignore the growing numbers of JW's scratching their heads over this and asking questions?
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Witnesses are PATHETIC and no better than the "WORLD"!!!
by sinis inwell, m. wohlman, a sister in the area i live died on friday afternoon in a car accident.
first, i must say that this woman was the devil incarnate.
she was 30+ years older than her husband and adopted a small boy.
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Well, M. Wohlman, a sister in the area I live died on friday afternoon in a car accident. First, I must say that this woman was the devil incarnate.
What a horrible, callous thing to say about someone who just died in a car crash. You sound like a demented JW.